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In 2022 I attended CPAC in Sydney. When I arrived at the Sydney Convention Centre at about 8.00am on the Saturday morning, I reckon there were at least 30 police officers in attendance. It seems they were worried that this group of ‘far right activists’ would, by their mere presence in a controlled access conference, provoke a violent reaction from sensitive victims from the Left. As it turned out, there was a small protest faction but World War Three didn’t break out. Nigel Farage dealt with them pretty comfortably. Nonetheless, CPAC was presented with an invoice for services rendered by NSW Police to keep the peace – a task which would seem to me to be within their taxpayer-funded remit.
Fast forward to October 21, 2023, when I again had the privilege of observing our boys and girls in blue keeping the peace.
I was staying at the Hyde Park Inn in Elizabeth St., Sydney and had returned from a shopping trip just in time to see the pre-approved pro-Palestinian march in full swing on its way from the Town Hall to Belmore Park. It was reported that 10,000 participated. That could well be true because I watched and filmed it for 10 minutes or so, then realized I could be more gainfully employed by finding an isolated spot on the sidewalk and ostentatiously turning my back on it, which I did until it finally petered out some 15 minutes later.
As it happened, the march was quite peaceful, and you wouldn’t need to be Einstein to figure out why. It was reported that 800 police were required to monitor this event. I can believe it. Apart from all the police manning every street junction within a bull’s roar, there was a police officer every 10 metres either side of the road, all marching to keep pace with the protestors. I must say they did a good job. I didn’t hear any hate speech cries of ‘F*** the Jews’ or ‘Gas the Jews’. Just benign chants of ‘Intifada!’ and ‘From the river to the sea palestine will be free’. And some placards accusing Israel of genocide.
I wonder how much that police presence cost? A small fortune, I imagine. And I wonder how the organisers of this rally, and the one last weekend, and the one proposed for next weekend, are ever going to raise such an amount when they get their invoice. It must be a great strain on their supporters, on top, of course, of what I’m sure they already send to support Gaza..
These people are now getting obscene publicity. Yes, the plight of innocent civilians in Gaza is something to be deplored. But what I find despicable and inexplicable is that all this current rodomontade commenced when Palestinian supporters were allowed to gather at the Sydney Opera House to celebrate – yes, celebrate – the slaughter of 1300 innocent men, women, children and babies. Not as collateral casualties in a military operation but as designated targets of a terrorist attack. That was sickening. I find it hard to think of anything that, in 75 years on this earth, has outraged me as much as that spectacle. And the sight of one courageous Jewish man being arrested for attempting to display the Israeli flag. And the video footage of a couple of Jewish kids being threatened with death for the same crime.
These people do not belong in any Australia that I recognise.
And it is beyond me how Muslim MPs Ed Husic and Anne Aly could have the chutzpah (irony intended) to demand the Opera House be similarly lit up in the face of this depravity. On Sunday morning I heard some woman on Sky News telling us those who support Palestine are not supporting Hamas, just the innocent victims of violence. Well, those outside the Opera House two weeks ago were certainly supporting Hamas. How many of Saturday’s 10,000 were also in that cohort, or would have been given the chance?
We are told the residents of Gaza are as much victims of Hamas as the Israelis, that they have no agency in these unfolding events. If that were true, how many of them would it take to overthrow Hamas in their own interest? How many, I wonder, would have refused to join their cheer squad outside the Opera House?
The overwhelming impression left by the weekend’s spectacle, which included a huge number of people not of middle-eastern appearance, was that this was above all anti-semitism at its most blatant.
Where are these useful idiots when it comes to the oppression of Uighur or Ukrainian or Burmese or Iranian or North Korean people? Or women and homosexuals in Iran?
And where the hell are our supposed leaders? Yes, we must preserve free speech and the right to protest, but if free speech isn’t free for conservatives, why should it be any different for those supporting murderous thugs in the Middle East?
Multiculturism?
@cbattle1
Multiculturalism has indeed been a disaster but it cannot be totally blamed for protests against injustice. It was not multiculturalism which led many Australians to protest against South African apartheid.
What multiculturalism has done is encourage people to hold to the past and not assimilate quickly into the Australian community. Unfortunately this is more common where people practice orthodox religions. Although even there young ones do break out and marry out.
NO
This is well put but protests against apartheid were always ginned up by anti-European liberal propaganda across the same spectrum of film, television, publishing and education as is still being used to destroy European nations. Israel is an apartheid state with above replacement reproduction, as it should be in order to survive, but in 1922 only seven per cent of Palestinians were Israelites. Something happened there and I don’t believe those Christian and Moslem Palestinians of 1922 could be expected to be too happy about it.
@David Isaac,
Israel’s problem is that of South Africa in essence although in SA the issue was ‘race’and in Israel it is religion.
The Afrikaners, more than the Anglo-Europeans believed Indians and black Africans were racially inferior and that they needed to keep power for themselves.
Israel was founded on a fear-based belief that power had to remain with Jews and that non-Jews were inferior. We know there was no issue with Arabs or Palestinians because immediate citizenship was given to all Arab Palestinian Jews. The criteria was religious. Ironic given the Zionists were pretty much atheists.
And in both cases, the demand for one group to have all of the power and to have entrenched social and political discrimination was doomed because the subjugated group was larger in terms of demographics.
This is why Israel has never allowed right of return, as it should. It is also why Israel has refused to do what other Western nations founded through colonisation have done, create one state shared equally by the native people and the colonisers.
The fact that Jews live happily and far more safely as religious minorities in many countries around the world is ignored because deeply entrenched racism toward the Palestinians in particular and Arabs in general exists. And the fear is still encouraged even though it is Israel’s actions toward the Palestinians which creates violence. But the culture needs an enemy so unconsciously that enemy will be created.
At the end of the day it is Israeli society which has become debased and that is a tragedy for Israelis and all those who believed in the dream and fantasy of the State.
I have to doubt your views of Israelis, noting that Arabs are represented in the parliament and the judiciary. Hardly evidence of a group that despises others. However, the real issue is that Islamic hadith call for the slaughter of Jews. Nothing in the Jewish scriptures calls for the slaughter of non-Jews.
The rot in our police forces is widespread. Remember the uniformed plods of Victoria Police taking a respectful knee to the illegal BLM marchers in Ballarat? And crowding in to arrest ZoeBuhler in her home there because she had the effrontery to post a call on Facebook for a protest against the lockdown laws? And the valiant blackshirts of the public order squad gunning down the small illegal protest at Victoria Market about the Covid lockdowns with their rubber bullets?
And she did not even have a part in organising the protest, and because of her condition may not have even attended had it gone ahead (it was cancelled). She merely urged others to attend.
Morgan Begg got it right for me: “Of all the images of Victorians suffering through two years in lockdown, the most indelible surely is that of a heavily pregnant Zoe Buhler being arrested in front of her family by Victoria Police in Ballarat over a social media post”.
Then the Public Prosecutor withdrew the charge after TWO years, thereby denying the opportunity to test the lawfulness of the police action – in order to make an arrest without a warrant, police officers need to reasonably believe that a person has committed an indictable offence, and how can anyone but Andrews truly belief she even went close?
In London too.
https://www.spiked-online.com/2023/10/22/the-islamo-left-is-a-menace-to-jews-and-decency/
“Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism)[a] is hostility to, prejudice towards, or discrimination against Jews.[2][3][4] This sentiment is a form of racism,[5][6] and a person who harbours it is called an antisemite. Though antisemitism is overwhelmingly perpetrated by non-Jews, it may occasionally be perpetrated by Jews in a phenomenon known as auto-antisemitism (i.e., self-hating Jews).[7] Primarily, antisemitic tendencies may be motivated by negative sentiment towards Jews as a people or by negative sentiment towards Jews with regard to Judaism. In the former case, usually presented as racial antisemitism, a person’s hostility is driven by the belief that Jews constitute a distinct race with inherent traits or characteristics that are repulsive or inferior to the preferred traits or characteristics within that person’s society.[8] In the latter case, known as religious antisemitism, a person’s hostility is driven by their religion’s perception of Jews and Judaism, typically encompassing doctrines of supersession that expect or demand Jews to turn away from Judaism and submit to the religion presenting itself as Judaism’s successor faith — this is a common theme within the other Abrahamic religions.[9][10] The development of racial and religious antisemitism has historically been encouraged by anti-Judaism,[11][12] though the concept itself is distinct from antisemitism.[13]
There are various ways in which antisemitism is manifested, ranging in the level of severity of Jewish persecution. On the more subtle end, it consists of expressions of hatred or discrimination against individual Jews, and may or may not be accompanied by violence. On the most extreme end, it consists of pogroms or genocide, which may or may not be state-sponsored. Although the term “antisemitism” did not come into common usage until the 19th century, it is also applied to previous and later anti-Jewish incidents. Notable instances of antisemitic persecution include the Rhineland massacres in 1096; the Edict of Expulsion in 1290; the European persecution of Jews during the Black Death, between 1348 and 1351; the massacre of Spanish Jews in 1391, the crackdown of the Spanish Inquisition, and the expulsion of Jews from Spain in 1492; the Cossack massacres in Ukraine, between 1648 and 1657; various anti-Jewish pogroms in the Russian Empire, between 1821 and 1906; the Dreyfus affair, between 1894 and 1906; the Holocaust by the Axis powers during World War II; and various Soviet anti-Jewish policies. Historically, most of the world’s violent antisemitic events have taken place in Christian Europe. However, since the early 20th century, there has been a sharp rise in antisemitic incidents across the Arab world, largely due to the surge in Arab antisemitic conspiracy theories, which have been cultivated to an extent under the aegis of European antisemitic conspiracy theories.[14][15]”.
…
Peter as best that I can glean, the ALP- the Greens-and most of ,not all – and the good ones you know who you are- of the mainstream media and the thrones of journalism and that of Academia in the West generally ,are all espousing what a friend of mine defined as the “Lefts acceptable form of elitist antisemitism”.The oleaginous types such as Waleed Aly and Ed Husic who I believe would make most women’s skin crawl ; are the lead thinkers as they are the purveyors of this body language of subtlety and nuance that are the hallmarks of this type of intellectual malfeasance.
*
Peter I once worked for a Jewish guy who I can say was the best boss I ever had- not only did he pay according to effort he also really went the extra mile in endeavouring to look after his staff. This guy had a Law degree as well as being a stockbroker. However at the time I knew him he was running a tree lopping company that we his workers used to affectionately call the bourgeois tree services -as he used to shout staff every morning to what can best be described as a continental breakfast that included more than a round of caffè latte’s.
*
I have always found Jewish people in general to be warm and friendly ,well mannered and courteous as well as intellectually humble ,intelligent, articulate, smart and very clever. This can be seen the world over by the mere fact that a large proportion by proportion occupy the higher seats of learning- Medicine, Law and of course the Chair of science ;Quantum Mechanics. Furthermore these people have a wonderful sense of humour that dovetails nicely with the Judeo-Christian western mind set. For example I once got chatting with a Jewish guy wearing his customary Koppel whilst pumping gas – thinking allowed /aloud I made the remark in light of the kippah that he was sporting that “you obviously think the world in general should be a little less material” , he smilingly laughed in reply.
My point Peter is that by comparison I find Moslems to be generally an unfriendly (they do not like us )bunch of immigrants and in general to be completely incompatible on almost all metrics in regards to the Western mindset, belief system’s and values so why on God’s good earth are our corporate, academic and political elites actively courting and affirming this middle eastern Islamic disaster.
*
Finally, as for Islam I would say that as a foreign body that fails to accept ,integrate or embrace the Western culture wherever they migrate, that we in the Western sphere have imported a Trojan horse of epic proportions.
These people are real S___s and most people if asked would quiet willingly Voice a No in support of Islamic immigration. We can live without inter generational antisemitic indoctrinated hatred on our doorsteps and between our ear lobes unless of course you would like to end up living in a state of Israel.
It’s interesting how the left in particular embrace all causes that cut across the grain and are so very counter cultural in nature.
*
Muslim’s the words you utter to the infidel do not align with your actions.
A referendum on further immigration to Australia of those of the islamic faith, would be interesting. The heckling of Aussie women walking in Lakemba in daytime might give us a clue as to the result.
Also interesting that the neighbouring countries of Jordan and Egypt will not allow people from Gaza to cross their borders. El-Sissi of Egypt said a mass exodus would risk bringing militants into Egypt’s Sinai Peninsula, from where they might launch attacks on Israel, endangering the two countries’ 40-year-old peace treaty.
Hmmm. – even other muslim countries won’t risk militants entering.
The NSW Police and politicians are more fearful of Lakemba than they are of Bellevue Hill. Arresting the victim (or potential victim) is such an easy, clear-cut path.
We should restrict followers of any fundamentalist religion and end multiculturalism. We should manage immigration so small numbers are allowed in at a time and encouraged to assimilate.
Just as many who support Israel do not support its violence so many who support the Palestinian Resistance do not support violence.
Surely in a civilized world we should apply the same principles to everyone. Otherwise what is the point of such principles which have underpinned our Western world.
My only position is that when we betray principles of justice, human rights, democracy, rule of law and common human decency for anyone, as so many do for the Palestinians, we betray them for everyone and we betray future generations most of all.
If nothing else the Aussie, ‘fair go’ approach should be applied or we are simply hypocrites. That means both sides must be assessed in context and with compassion, taking into account their circumstances.
Hamas has been a useful tool for Israel because it can pretend the fight is against a group which has been deemed to be a terrorist entity when the fight is against the native people of Palestine who live under occupation and continued colonisation.
If the actions of the Palestinian Resistance/Hamas are deemed to be terrorism, what does that make Israel’s orders to Jewish settlers to shoot Palestinians on sight in other parts of Occupied Palestine? As they have. Israel has also bombed Palestinians outside of Gaza and armed settlers have emptied two Palestinian villages.
And if Hamas is to be condemned for wanting to eradicate Israel, what are we to make of sentiments such as these from Israelis?
The Israeli army mobilized Ezra Yachin, a 95-year-old army veteran, to “motivate” the troops. Yachin was a member of the Lehi Zionist militia that carried out numerous massacres of Palestinian civilians, including the Deir Yassin massacre on April 9, 1948,
“Be triumphant and finish them off and don’t leave anyone behind. Erase the memory of them,” Yachin said addressing Israeli troops.
“Erase them, their families, mothers and children,” he went on. “These animals can no longer live.”
“Every Jew with a weapon should go out and kill them,” he said. “If you have an Arab neighbor, don’t wait, go to his home and shoot him.”
Ah rosross I think the Jews occupied the holy land long before Islam was invented.
*
The Israeli army mobilized Ezra Yachin, a 95-year-old army veteran, to “motivate” the troops. Yachin was a member of the Lehi Zionist militia that carried out numerous massacres of Palestinian civilians, including the Deir Yassin massacre on April 9, 1948,
“Be triumphant and finish them off and don’t leave anyone behind. Erase the memory of them,” Yachin said addressing Israeli troops.
“Erase them, their families, mothers and children,” he went on. “These animals can no longer live.”
“Every Jew with a weapon should go out and kill them,” he said. “If you have an Arab neighbor, don’t wait, go to his home and shoot him.”
And paraphrased, rosross this situation is eternally insoluble in this gentleman’s estimation. Furthermore how can we live like this the situation is intolerable – stay away from these people or suffer the consequences of death for yourself. It is not a command to kill but a command to be on guard-live wisely!
*
And lastly maybe if they weren’t animals that would be the return of a civilised atmosphere and civility would reign in living.
*
Hypocrite or no hypocrite give Australians a Voice on this and they will tell useful idiots as yourself what we want, even as you ladle us with the guilt trick such as alike in the Albanese voice excreta.
By the way in the story of the Good Samaritan Christ is talking about your Christian brother not smarmy conmen like Waleed Aly who would turn their back(deceive) on (are)us in hour of need -in a hairs breath.
In short we the Australian people probably do not want the diabolical situation the Jewish people and the state of Israel has on its doorstep in ours. We want to live in peace and not fall prey to the interminable prognostication’s of Marxist snake theory or Islamic snake theory that never works in the interests of peace or created wisdom.
Occupied is the correct term. Yes Jews came in and set up their tribal camps in Palestine long before Islam was invented. However religions do not get rights to land so it is irrelevant.
The statements are hate speech, incitement to violence and calls to genocide. They cannot be justified even if we can understand the fear behind those who voice them.
You said:. Furthermore how can we live like this the situation is intolerable
It is intolerable because the Zionists set up a State demanding Jewish superiority and power in a country with a majority Muslim population and a large Christian population.
It is intolerable because for 75 years Israel has continued to colonise Palestine and to dispossess violently the native people.
It is intolerable because Israel has made it impossible for the Palestinians and now reaps that bitter harvest.
You said: And lastly maybe if they weren’t animals
And there is the problem. Israelis consider them to be subhuman and animals and clearly you do also. No-one is an animal in the sense you imply and if you treat humans as animals guess what you will get? A good understanding of psychology might help you work that out.
It is not about Australians having a voice on this but about our right to protest peacefully. If you seek to deny that for some you deny it for all.
You said: By the way in the story of the Good Samaritan Christ is talking about your Christian brother …
I am no expert but have studied and read enough Christianity to question your claim. One of the things about Christianity which stands out above other religions is the charge to ‘do unto others..’and to ‘be your brother’s keeper’applied to all humans, regardless of religion. Other religions including Judaism and Islam are selective for their own.
But you may be right. Can you make a case that is what was intended and I have had it wrong for so long?
“Can you make a case that is what was intended and I have had it wrong for so long?”
.
Please notice me and treat my rabid hypotheses seriously because I really crave that acknowledgement.
@Katz,
I was referring to this and not asking you since I do not think you are a Christian.
You said: By the way in the story of the Good Samaritan Christ is talking about your Christian brother …
By the way I looked it up and my interpretation was correct.
The Parable of the Good Samaritan
Jesus used the Parable of the Good Samaritan as an example of loving those who may not be our friends.
You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your friends, hate your enemies.’ But now I tell you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you
Matthew 5:43-47
p.s. Since Australia has not done to the native people of this land what Israel did and does to the Palestinians why would we have their problems? There is no movement in Australia demanding freedom and rights because they have both. What we have here are ambit claims for more rights, more power and more money.
In fairness the Aborigines have been displaced from the best land here, as have the Palestinians there. They are materially much better off than before British settlement but they have lost their authentic way of life. It was a question of force, and all the moral window-dressing aside, it will remain ever thus. The current propaganda war is just for recruiting as many allies and fellow travellers.
According to the morality of their own survival both sides have good arguments. As to picking sides, which is worse for Australia the enmity of local Muslims and the Islamic world including Indonesia or the enmity of the heavily AIPAC-influenced USA and our own active Jewish lobby?
@ David Isaac,
Yes, aboriginal peoples were often displaced or, as the history reveals, they chose to join the modern world and the broader community where a stone-age hunter-gatherer life was no longer their choice or their option.
As to losing their authentic way of life, all humans were once stone-age hunter-gatherers and all lost that way of life. It was no more authentic than the life which replaced it. The first aborigine to accept or steal an iron axe was rejecting the previous life, which you call authentic, and assimilating.
And in most cases it was not forced, but chosen. The British and later Australian Governments had a policy of assimilation but it was a choice. Those who chose not to take it up were protected, preserved and supported in retaining tribal lifestyles. I happen to think that was a mistake but it is what happened.
The Israel/Palestine issue is difficult and that is why the only approach, as it was with apartheid South Africa, is to do what is right, just, fair and decent. And that means end the occupation and provide justice and freedom for the Palestinians who have been denied it for 75 years.
When it comes to principles I think it is wrong to make choices based on fear of upsetting others. That is never going to end well. Pandering to people does not work as we have seen with the aboriginal industry.
We need to apply the principles we value and would wish to have applied to us.
One can sympathise with the suffering of Israelis but they have actively created this situation by their appalling treatment of the Palestinians over nearly a century.
Given the hatred they have for the Palestinians and the belief many Israelis hold, shockingly so, that Palestinians are subhuman, and the hatred many Palestinians feel for nearly a century of dispossession and abuse, it seems hard to see how a one-state solution could work. Which means a way has to be found to create two fully independent states with the same rights.
What is certain is the current oppression of the native people of the land israel occupies and continues to colonise cannot last.
NO
Good piece Peter but I assume you were being ironic in saying:
“I didn’t hear any hate speech cries of ‘F*** the Jews’ or ‘Gas the Jews’. Just benign chants of ‘Intifada!’ and ‘From the river to the sea Palestine will be free’.”
From the river to the sea is anything but benign. Unless ethnic cleansing is benign.
Thanks Peter,
definitely ironic!
Unfortunately, like the other day, the scroll wheel needed again.
I’m not so sure that I need to observe this Journal much longer. It seems that the Tower of Babel is still standing, and most of the posts seem to come from a solitary position, whatever that may be. In my pathetic attempts to gain insights into the many issues we speak about, I cannot seem to find a thread of conservatism running through it, What if we all straddled the fence? If enough people do that, and these pages are a good example of that, then eventually the fence will come tumbling down. Obviously, straddling the fence shows that the person in question has a foot in both camps, which never solves anything. Good authors provide us well written articles, and all we seem to do is, using our personal polarities, tear them apart without providing or proposing a solution. Remember, the road to perdition is strewn with good intentions. Remember also, straddling the fence just crushes ones nuts.
@Paul.Harrison
Is there not a difference between straddling a fence and applying principles equally?
Surely in a civilized society we can do the latter. With any issue it is critical to seek to understand the history of a situation and its circumstances for all sides and then to assess actions from that perspective.
Most would agree that violence is to be condemned but on this issue, for many the only condemnation of violence is toward the Palestinians and not their occupiers and colonisers, the Israelis.
That is not how things work in any court of law and that is not how we would want them to work particularly if we were in the dock. What are the mitigating factors, if any, for Israelis and Palestinians? What can and cannot be justified, if any violence can?
Nothing happens in a vacuum but one thing is certain, if we commit terrible violence against others there is a good chance they will become violent in return. International law defends the right of people under occupation to resist, if not fight. The double standards are the problem here and that serves no good purpose for anyone.
I fail to understand why some find it impossible to have compassion both for Israelis and Palestinians, some understanding of their situation, and to continue to apply to this conflict principles of justice, rule of law, human rights and common human decency.
I think you are unable to tell right from wrong. I think you should lead an exodus of the Muslims back to where they came from. Then we wouldn’t need these asinine comments from you. Cheers.
For your files. Data on the Israeli dead from Haaretz newspaper:
There are also so far no recorded deaths of children under the age of three, which throws into question the Israeli narrative that babies were targeted by Palestinian resistance fighters. Of the 683 total casualties reported thus far, seven were between the ages of 4 and 7, and nine between the ages of 10 and 17. The remaining 667 casualties appear to be adults.
Re the scepticism re the reports of atrocities of 7 October:
People who will make informed decisions here will read as many reports as possible – even the horrendous ones. Nor do I believe that readers of Quadrant do not apply critical thinking to their research.
Without descending into details, it is impossible to believe that most fatalities were caused by the IDF. The footage of the number of torched cars (complete with massive bullet holes) of young people trying to flee the desert festival speak to the reality. This does not even touch the personal testimonies and interviews with those who survived. The devastation of Kfar Aza will surely enter the history books for the savagery that took place there.
I don’t know why I am surprised at the failure of some to be shocked or appalled. I will never forget the conversation of a (then) close friend the morning after 911. Her attitude was – “well, what can you expect…America has a lot of enemies”. And she is “an educated person”. But then morality, I suppose, has nothing to do with intelligence.
I never said Quadrant readers do not apply critical thinking. I am not the only one questioning and challenging the biased approach to this conflict.
What I have found is that people who have fixed negative views are not going to be able to process as rationally as they might believe they do.
Perhaps it was my training in journalism in ways which no longer exist, that taught me to look at all sides, strive for balanced, perspective, context and facts. Or perhaps it is because I have a strong sense of justice.
When one does that it is very clear that the Palestinians have a cause and a case and have suffered terrible provocation for more than 75 years. It also makes it clear that Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians plays a major part in all violence and as the UN head said, nothing happens in a vacuum.
The reference I made to fatalities was in regard to the attack on the Kibbutz and was sourced in what a survivor told Israeli radio about what happened.
I was not talking in general and I do not dispute the violence which happened at the concert. However, as a keen amateur historian I also know that it is unwise to form opinions until all the facts are on the table. That will happen. They have already begun to filter out.
The reality is, the personal testimonies and interviews with those who survived, as well as the reports of released hostages, makes it very clear the Palestinians were not the barbarians as claimed.
What will enter the history books is Israel’s barbarism toward Gaza where the devastation and deaths outweigh the horrors of Kfar Aza.
Being shocked and appalled means little in the scheme of life. I am not shocked that a crushed people resort to violent resistance. Deeply saddened but not surprised. I am not even shocked that Israel has reacted with even worse violence because I have been exposed to Israelis and their culture and have read enough to know what violent occupation and colonisation does to those who inflict it on others and to those who suffer it.
I think most people of conscience are horrified at violence and that includes what happened on October 7. However, Israel’s long history of violence to maintain occupation and colonisation of Palestine is even more appalling.
Perhaps what I find most appalling is the level of Islamophobia at work in the world which allows the horrifying revenge response by Israel to happen. But that reflects Israel’s great tragedy, the common belief that the Palestinians are subhuman and their deaths are meaningless. Such a belief hurts Israelis far more than the Palestinians.
NO
@bollux,
I believe violent occupation is wrong where people are denied freedom, justice, civil and human rights.
I believe in this modern age colonisation is wrong even if it has been a necessary part of human evolution.
I believe collective punishment of civilians is wrong.
I believe locking people in a prison because they resist occupation is wrong.
I believe testing weapons on trapped humans is wrong.
I believe denying the humanity of others is terribly wrong.
Which of those have I got wrong.
NO
I’m curious Paul, in what respect is Peter O’B “straddling the fence” here? Genuine question.
“Where are these useful idiots when it comes to the oppression of Uighur or Ukrainian or Burmese or Iranian or North Korean people? Or women and homosexuals in Iran?”
Quite, and where indeed are the said useful idiots when it comes to oppression of Palestinians – including, but not limited to, women and homosexuals – by Hamas itself?
I have been following the posts on this issue and that of the voice and increasing drawn to Carl Sagans quote on the last image sent by Voyage 1 as it continued on its course into the unknown. The image known as Pale Blue dot.
“There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we’ve ever known.”
Perhaps this needs to be lead in every news report every morning.
Yes, a brilliant suggestion. I am going to keep a copy on my desk.
The truth does generally filter out and for all the hyperbole and hysterical claims it seems that things were not quite as they were presented and as many believed. Not that there will be many apologies and no restoration to life for more than 5,000 Palestinians, nearly half of them children.
The beheaded babies story was retracted by the journalist who reported it and she apologised as did a number of other journalists and the White House backtracked. Some survivors reported the Palestinians treated them well, as has also been said by the elderly hostages just released. A Kibbutz survivor said that most died because the IDF fired on everyone and sent missiles into the Kibbutz house.
Please can we have some balance? What purpose does it serve anyone to demonise one side?
Haaretz is an Israeli newspaper and courageous in its quest for balance and facts. It is publishing detailed lists of the Israeli dead.
Instead of the wholescale massacre of civilians claimed by Israel, incomplete figures show that almost half the Israelis killed that day were in fact combatants – soldiers or police.
Of these, 331 casualties – or 48.4 percent – have been confirmed to be soldiers and police officers. Another 13 are described as rescue service members, and the remaining 339 are ostensibly considered to be civilians.
NO
Today’s REJECTED comment to The Australian:
*****
“Mr Anderson said he didn’t think the ABC was “anti-Semitic in any way.”
.
The ABC per se cannot be “anti-Semitic”, but its staff can be and some are.
*****
And still PENDING after 9 days (and article still uncorrected):
*****
“Police arrived to fund Mr Czuba”
.
How much money did they give him?
*****
A published comment in full today:
***
Barbarism is ignored in order to call barbarism. We are in dangerous territory.
***
I have no idea what the first sentence means.
BTW, Haaretz is understood in Israel to be an extremely left wing publication that is sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. As we know from our own experience of left wing publications, particularly in recent years, the truth is no longer seen to be non negotiable.
It is easy enough to establish the validity of Haaretz by checking its sources and claims. Full marks to Israel that Haaretz is allowed to exist and full marks to Haaretz for striving to be real journalists and seeking balance, objectivity and factual reporting.
NO
Those protesters who Peter O’Brien referred to – who came out to support the Palestinians in our streets with chants of “gas the Jews” immediately after all the atrocities were carried out by Hamas and before Israel responded – will now be transformed into peace loving activists. Watch them and many other Palestinian supporters and you’ll see for yourself.
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Why will they transform into peace protestors?
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Because Israel is taking action to destroy the still active Hamas government’s terrorist strongholds in Gaza to prevent further evil atrocities ( atrocities is far too mild a word) being carried out in Israel.
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These same protesters think they can turn generally peace loving people and their governments in the West against Israel. They’re very mistaken.
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This sort of protest action may have had some impact previously but the atrocities have been so absolutely evil and abhorrent and on such a wide scale this time that Western governments are responding far differently in support of Israel’s right to defend itself and in other ways against Palestinians in their Western countries who have openly supported the atrocities.
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Also the atrocities have been documented more thoroughly thanks to better intelligence including very importantly, that from head cams retrieved from the many terrorists who perpetrated these evil atrocities on a large scale. And there’s also the very public mistreatment of innocent hostages and the extremely large number of hostages.
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It should be noted the Hamas government elected by the people of Gaza is holding these hostages – not some rogue terrorists, but the government itself with whom free Western democracies are negotiating. The evil behind this Gaza government will become more and more obvious as time goes on. It’s already more obvious to Western governments than it has ever been in the past. They’re responding accordingly.
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This is despite the attempts of pro Palestinian protesters and posters in social media to challenge the atrocities at every turn. The despicable evil perpetrated by the Palestinians sent into Israel by the government in Gaza will become more and more apparent as time goes on.
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The evidence will become overwhelming, particularly as remaining hostages are released, tortured or murdered by the government in Gaza. We already know the 85 year old grandmother who was just released was beaten by the brave Palestinian freedom fighters who held her in Gaza.
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There’s no point debating with protesters who are chanting ” gas the Jews”. These are obviously people not open to hear any other side. And given innocent Australians have in the past been murdered on our streets by people who support the Palestinians – it could be downright dangerous.
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And there’s no point debating with people who came out to support the Palestinians immediately after the atrocities were carried out and widely reported. These people supported the Palestinians tellingly before Israel responded. It’s a waste of time debating with such people and I never will. They disgust me. The timing of their support for the Palestinians gives them away totally. Debating with them would be like swimming in a sewer.
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And I’ll certainly never let the Greens lecture me about coal use when their members of parliament were reported in The Australian refusing to condemn the Hamas terrorist atrocities. It seems they condemn coal use but won’t condemn terrorist atrocities and murders carried out on innocent children, toddlers, grandmothers, women and men.
At last some sanity- you nailed it.
Thank you STD.
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But it’s really so obvious it nails itself.
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No matter what the historical perspective – despicable, unspeakable, inhuman atrocities carried out on this scale by a government can never be justified. No amount of obfuscating, denial, or protracted debating points justifies this pure evil.
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And the actions of Western democracies this time confirm that they fully recognise that now.
YES
@Balanced Observation,
I think you might be surprised at how world opinion, including from many Jews, is on the side of justice for the long-oppressed Palestinians. That does not mean Governments since many, including Australia do the bidding of the US on the issue, but the people around the world who see the justness of the Palestinian cause. Do not underestimate the power of the people.
As to Hamas being a Government, it is not. Calling it a Government is as silly as talking about Gaza having borders. Gaza is a prison and has been since 2007 which is about the time the Palestinian people as a whole elected Hamas. That election was overturned by the US and Israel so since that time Hamas is simply a part of the Palestinian Resistance and a prisoner support facility in Gaza.
Israel could kill every last member of Hamas if it were possible, but that would not destroy the Palestinian Resistance. That will not die until the Palestinians have justice and freedom. You can kill people but not ideas.
One reason why more people are now fighting for Palestine is because anyone who knows the history knows that the evil and abhorrent atrocities in the main have been committed by Israel over 75 years and even prior through the actions of the terrorist gangs, Stern and Irgun.
As to Israel’s right to defend itself, in law, an occupier and coloniser, particularly one with the fourth largest military in the world, does not have the right to defend itself against the resistance of the people it oppresses. If it did then the Germans would have been justified in their slaughter in the Warsaw Ghetto and the desperate Jews inside would be terrorists. No-one believes that.
The violence from the Palestinians is being documented more thoroughly and unfortunately for Israel, the data is showing that many died at the hands of the IDF. But, I agree with you, the more detail we get the better.
It is good to hear reports from released hostages that they were well treated by the Palestinians. And you are a bit wrong on the grandmother who said in her interview she was beaten while being taken to Gaza, painfully but not badly, but well treated once in Gaza and provided with medical help. It is wise to get the facts straight. You can access her interview still I think and you can read the transcript of the Kibbutz survivor who also said the Palestinians treated them well and it was the IDF which fired missiles and incinerated those in the Kibbutz House.
You can find this sort of information on many Jewish American sites so full marks to them for fighting for facts and truth.
It’s pretty clear that the Israeli deep state has a plan to gradually increase control of the West Bank and apply an intermittent George Floyd style chokehold on Gaza. From the point of view of Israeli survival this will be good, as have been the deastabilisation of Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and North Africa. Perhaps the West also benefits from this weakening of a potentially united and belligerent enemy which controls huge oil supplies and the Suez canal. However one can at least envision a different diplomatic approach.
@David Isaac,
Israel’s plan was always to take all of Palestine but it has a major problem which is 6 million in Occupied Palestine, 2 million as second-class Israeli citizens and 8 million in the Diaspora. Israel needs a De Klerk and for the sake of Israelis I hope they get one.
@RosRoss
There is no chance of Israel accepting a two-state solution at this point. Nor will it capitulate like S. Africa which had the entire world plus a demographic tsunami and it’s own, mainly British origin, liberals to contend with. As I am sure you’ve noticed, whilst there are a few contrary voices, there’s no shortage of support in the Western media for the Israeli ethnostate. Is this related to Seymour Hersh’s ‘Samson Option’ or are there other factors in play?
The question for Australia and the broader West, is: ‘What is OUR long-term best interest in this conflict? And how do we realize it through our actions? These questions cannot be discussed honestly in the open media or in polite society, which is one reasom why ‘Our Democracy’ is a smokescreen for the few who really make the salient decisions based on their interests.
‘A liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel’ – Robert Frost
@David Isaac,
In essence I agree which is why I can only wish for an Israeli De Klerk. However, times change and our times have certainly changed.
The Americans are in dire straits in terms of economic fragility and are fighting a proxy war with Russia and looking to fight a real one with China. Can they afford to waste time and lives on a war in the Middle East, particularly since their dependency on oil has lessened, albeit what they are currently stealing from Syria.
What purpose does Israel serve for the US if it no longer requires dominance in the Middle East? And will Americans be prepared to die for the Israeli State? I doubt it. But, as many military analysts and professionals have said, wars take on a force of their own and anything can happen.
If the American economy implodes it can no longer afford the billions it gives to Israel and the State is far more fragile in economic terms than was South Africa.
Also, more Jews, particularly American are distancing themselves from the Zionist State and younger ones are marrying out. Younger generations have little knowledge of history and even less interest but they do have strong opinions on colonial entities.
Israel has squandered the goodwill it once had in the world and at its own cost.
I suspect the support for Israel in the Western media has more to do with economics than actual support. If the economics change so does the support.
Your question is excellent but I wonder how often such sensible questions have ever been asked about war.
There are so many factors involved, known and unknown and that also applies to Israel. It was said long ago that the real threat to Israel was within and not from the Palestinians. The divide between religious Israelis and atheist/secular is wide and deep. The recent protests in Israel also reflected a division in the society.
The old colonists, well educated in Europe are dying out and Israel’s education system is in poor shape. That takes a toll for a tiny country with little in the way of resources and which has been dependent on technology for sale.
Many are disenchanted, particularly the young and that no doubt is why so many leave to return to the countries their parents or grandparents left behind to colonise Palestine. One of the largest communities is in Berlin which I see as a wonderful healing touch even if it says bleak things about Israel. They feel safer and are happier in Germany than Israel. Who would have thought that would happen 75 years ago.
Times change and often dramatically.
Can we please have that one comment per contibutor rule on these articles where an idiot sprays over other’s comments like a cat marking its territory. It’s like poking the wound of 7th October with a sharp stick. She probably enjoys hearing that.
It’s an “Honour System:?
We can see who has no honour.
@Katz,
One comment rather destroys the principles at work and requires a lot of effort. You don’t really want one comment you want censorship on some comments. Plenty of comments from lots of people who think the same as you and that is not an issue for you.
Surely it is possible to be mature and handle the fact, even if it causes you pain, that people have different opinions.
After the request I’ve restained my comments. Has someone censored me? It probably requires a lot of effort to stop an empty garbage can from making a racket rolling fast downhill.
And I have restrained mine. Many have not. In the main I reply if someone replies to me.
Meanwhile our Matilda’s are playing Iran.
Henry Ergas in The Australian 27/10:
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That is what Bob Hawke, who was consistently mindful of the Palestinians’ plight, so lucidly grasped in 1974, when he vehemently rejected the Whitlam government’s “morally repugnant policy of ‘even-handedness’ ”.
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Stressing that the Middle East conflict was part of the global attack on the democracies, he stared down the strong pro-Arab forces in the ALP and unreservedly picked sides. “IF WE ALLOW THE BELL TO BE TOLLED FOR ISRAEL,” Hawke declared, “IT WILL HAVE TOLLED FOR US ALL.”
The Australian moderator must have made a mistake – this was ACCEPTED:
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Hamas is the “elected” government of Gaza and will control the distribution of “humanitarian aid”
Gaza is a prison. Prisons do not have Governments. Hamas has been instrumental in practical measures to make life in the prison more bearable and even aid agencies have said that. They are organised enough to make use of the aid which by the way is more theatre than anything else given how trivial it is in light of the problem.
Israel’s attack on the prisoners in Gaza is genocidal and the fact that we do not take a stand against it in Australia is appalling. However, we are the lackey of the US and do what we are told. And that applies to both major parties. We degrade and debase ourselves in the doing.
Yet the impression one has is that Hamas spends much of its money on fortifications, not schools or hospitals. Then, what choice does Israel have, when the population of Gaza ( I refuse to use the anatopic term ‘Palestine’: name for a Roman province, not a national identity. ) is taught to hate Jews, in line with the Koranic religion’s urging. Yet, Israel gives work permits for Gaza residents to work in Israel. Look where that got them.
Israel offers land for a two state solution but this is routinely rejected over time, because the Arabs and other non-Jews don’t want Israel in its historic home land at all…for religious reasons.
Listen to a phone call of a Hamas terrorist calling home, bragging about how many people he massacred
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pic.twitter.com/Xv0ykyxvrF
So, Israel completely missed the attack but now has forensically managed to tap into phone calls. Pull the other one.
And if you have not caught up with it, the conversation, supposedly between two Palestinian fighters saying, Israel did not do it, we did it, has been shown by experts in such things to be a complete fake. Language, accent, context all of it fails the test for authenticity. And you know that they can tell if such a conversation has been fabricated?
Sadly mate, the porkies coming from the Israelis are getting so fanciful no-one believes anything they say. Well, not grownups anyway.
I guess that tells Peter O’Brien, Peter Smith, Roger Franklin, and many (if not most) of the readers of these pages what you think of them. Nice to know.
“These people do not belong in any Australia that I recognise.”
This is what happens when a country adopts liberal immigration and citizenship policies and promotes “diversity” over assimilation and unity.
As Henry Kissinger put it in a recent interview, mass immigration has embedded alien “pressure groups” within Western countries.
“It was a grave mistake to let in so many people of totally different culture and religion and concepts,” Kissinger said.
Unfortunately, too many Westerners – including Australians – cling to the belief that everybody else on the planet shares our values. Consequently, the mass movement of culturally-disparate populations into Western countries isn’t seen as a threat to social order.
Western left-liberals are yet to comprehend the mess they have helped create.
As American commentator Matt Boose writes:
“Westerners have always been the only true liberals, and now they are a dying breed. This realization has yet to dawn on them, however. They can only think to continue the death spiral: more Third-World immigrants, more vehement affirmations of “diversity,” and eventually, racial harmony arrives. But that’s not what’s happening in the real world. Westerners have forsaken their concept of “home.” They alone are committed to the globalist “nowhere.” The peoples who are replacing them remain fervently attached to their native lands, and they are quite happy to exploit Westerners’ peculiar form of tolerance.”
http://chroniclesmagazine.org/web/israel-hamas-and-the-death-of-liberalism/